She Leads Africa Webinar: How To Start A Natural Hair Care Brand With Nibi Lawson

Hello, everyone and welcome to our webinar today on how to start a natural haircare Korean. My name is a fois Tuesday and I'm a co-founder as she leaves Africa. Apologies for starting a bit late, but really excited to have maybe Lawson with us she's the founder of kinky apothecary, hello, newbie. Welcome is well thanks for having me thank you for joining us. We'Re so excited to talk today about natural hair kind of as an industry and its business. I think everyone on the testability team is natural and we know how much money we spend on products, and I just felt like as young women we're more so as consumers. Instead of creators and actually taking advantage of this boom, this resurgence in this interest and by creating product that you know we can make money from as well as look beautiful with. So I'm really excited to have a newbie here with us and we're gon na tell you can start a natural hair brand. They do to the DOS what it takes to build a product line that actually makes sense for your customers, doing, testing development and, of course, can answer. Your questions definitely make sure that you join Chile's Africa o-r-g to webinars and all the sub follow the kinky Apothecary on all the social media platforms and visit their website, kinky apothecary haha, so newbie welcome. Welcome. Can you tell us a little bit about who you are and how you found yourself, Nadia entrepreneur, okay, new back, I was living in the UK and lived in the States for a little bit and I moved back to Nigeria and working in a finance company. But I'd been natural for several years before I moved and I just been messing around with my hair - wasn't using any different products or anything. But then, when I moved to Nigeria, I just realized that another thing is, I used to wear my hair blown quite a lot when I was in the UK and when I came to Nigeria, I realized that that wouldn't work with the humidity you just would never Stay straight and just things that I've been using in my head and seem to work anymore and I needed to UM start researching what I could do and then that's when I started paying attention to my hair and products and nothing that was recommended was available in Nigeria, at a time this is about seven years ago, when I first started looking into everything, and so I started. I I'd have to travel to get my products and then people were asking me about my hair and things, and I realised that there was a market and there was. It was a gap and people needed not only do they need the products. I needed. The advice - and so I started it was really just as a hobby, because I still had my full-time job. I was bringing back a number of products and selling them having small workshops and that's how it started off and then a few years ago developed it into a proper business. We get a lot of. We hear a lot of stories like that, so we had a person, we need, you had a struggle and then you tried to solve it for yourself and leave and realizing it's a bigger problem, not just your startup business. Now maybe you mentioned that you first had a full-time job and you were just traveling back and forth. So one of the questions that we've received from our community, let me see, was from at any Katie. She wanted to know how you know when you started it. Just as a hobby or something you're doing part-time college, sorry to cuss out the hello to support it, how did you manage those two? You know those two things so or it cuts us a little bit. So I didn't get all the thing you said. How does I cope with rejection, basically yeah and then also just having both the business and your full-time job? Well, that was difficult. I mean my full-time job is very demanding, so it was really hard. You know to have both and a lot of things did slip, especially in right at the beginning, even when, as a hobby, it was a one-man band and I was doing everything on my own. So a lot of things they've slipped through the net. I don't know if I'd recommend people start off the way I did, but then, if you, if you are starting something, as I hope you that there are ways to work around it, if you, if your job isn't that demanding and if you just you just prepare To put in the work and then know that, for example, in an evening, you're not gon na go out you're, not gon na watch TV and you're gon na be focusing because it's essentially your second job. So that's what I have to eventually do. I knew that, for example, I couldn't have a phone number as a way of people contacting me if I couldn't answer the phone all the time, so I focused more on communicating with people via email and through the blog, and so that's how I was able able To balance it in terms of rejection, I mean that that's a given, even if he starts off as a proper company you're going to face rejection, it's just something that we we go through and you just have to persevere and just keep keep at it, and there Were brands or companies that I contacted at the beginning, who didn't even respond to emails and right away, and now we have a good working relationship. It just took time and just you know trying kept trying and that's how I got that. So we can. You walk us through kind of how did you concept for the kinky apothecary, you know what gaps did you identify initially in the market, and you know how did you really figure out? Okay? What kind of products do I want to focus on? Do I not want to focus on and really figuring out who your target customer is because, whenever you're starting a new business, there are so many questions that you don't have the answers to. So how are you able to really focus and decide? This is what we will do this we won't do, and this is how we're going to it be a bit different in the market. Okay, well at the time, because very money thing within six to seven years ago, there wasn't really a market. So basically it was, you know the my oyster, essentially so how I discovered there was a. There was a gap because I needed natural hair products and there weren't none. I went to all the stores and the time on the island. I think I went on all of API and stuff and there was nothing there was no we're stocking any of the brands that had been recommended on the forums that I'd been reading about any of the brand names or any brands that had. You know any brands that didn't have mineral oil, sulfates, etc. There just wasn't anything so the market was right and I just knew and also from the questions I was getting at the time there was just. I just knew that there was that gap in the market. There was, it was just obvious at the time now it's different, because so many companies have now sprung up and there's so many people doing so many different things and it's really important to try and figure out how to differentiate yourself from all the others. My aim was to create a company that was a one-stop resource, so it just anything that you wanted education, a variety of products at a variety of prices, just to ensure that those things were all available in one place and also just to bring in the expertise. Like I'm obsessed with natural hair - and I especially was at that time - and I know - and I've done a lot of research - I really know about know about it. I, though I was for me, it was quite easy to inject that into a brand and just to show people and to you know, get people to understand that. I knew what I was talking about when I was able to give the advice. So it's all about finding what your niche is, what your expertise is and how you can convey that to UM, it's your potential customers, so so kind of for some customers that you decided you weren't going to source alright, because it couldn't. You found the people. You were going to work, for I mean you weren't, going to provide products, but was there any way? You said you know what they be a customer, but not right now, and how did you make that determination on who you focus that focus on in instability when you're just starting out? Well, when I was just starting out, it was. The focus was just on people like me: people with natural hair people who, at the time, were doing the research online and trying to find people. I wasn't necessarily going after you know, just anyone like now. Our market has expanded, so it's people like my mother's friends, who don't necessarily find things through going online, but initially our target market was young naturals who were at a loss. Who didn't I mean? Who would go online and look for things and that's how they would they would find us, and that was initial. I didn't specifically decide not to target anybody. It was just that that that was who the natural market - that's that's what the market was at the time. I didn't specifically say: oh I'm not targeting men, I'm not targeting women over age 65; it's just a natural occurrence er who people who are interested in. He found our products, just budging searches online. I happened to be in the same under socio-economic and age group as I was yeah, so what I'm hearing from you is by naturally kind of how you decided to design the company. Certain customer came to you because I can imagine, because it was on a storefront. You know how many people, who felt comfortable, maybe with not seeing a product before buying it or who were engaged on social media, so because the way you design the company that meant that you're reaching some people, but you weren't necessarily reaching others at first. Exactly that's exactly what that's exactly how it it was, and also you have to remember that about six years ago in Nigeria, people were that confident with paying money for something and buying something online that they hadn't seen and they hadn't touched, which was why, later on, We identified the need for to have the concessions where people could see the actual physical which I'll get to a bit later, but right at the beginning, as it was mainly people who had to put that trust in from seeing a product online and deciding to go. For it, okay, so can you tell us a little bit about your products right? I think I'm natural and I feel like I need everything. Just shampoo conditioner oils, creams gels, but when you're first starting out - and you can't do everything right - you have to focus on so can you talk to us a little bit about your research and development process? You know what products did you decide to start with and then how did it? You can additional science to it. You can't just wake up one day and just make something and assume that it's gon na work. So how did you research the different products? How did you research, what would work and what wouldn't work, and then how did you kind of figure out what recipes you were going to utilize? You know for your business as your initial product set okay. Well, I have to clarify first of all what the kinky earth curry does we don't make products where we have one product that we make, but we actually, what we do. Is we retail a variety of brands, so we bring in things from the u.s. from the UK and some Nigerian brands as well and I've always right from the beginning? I knew what I wanted. You know what kind of brand I wanted to put across. It always always wanted to be a brand that only associated with high quality brands as well, and I knew that it. I would only stop products that I believed in as well, because that would just make it easier for me to sell. If I believe I can't sell a product that I don't know anything about, I don't really believe it works, so that was how I was able to select the brands I worked with and that especially comes into play with a lot of Nigerian brands, because you sometimes You see a lot of brands, a lot of locally made products that are not necessarily abstract. They wouldn't necessarily stand up next to an American brand, for example, on a shelf, and we wanted to work with products that that were of that level, so that so what we do and how we stop product I'm we I work a lot with with one we Work with a Nigerian brands, we work a lot to try and understand what their processes and to just ensure that they have processes in place. That would stand up to to an international brand. So there are a couple of my German brands that we have there look a lot more, that we're gon na we're working with and we're talking to about, stocking and just along this way. I'Ve just been able to to get an idea of what people need to the kind of research that people need to do to be able to build their own brand because they can't just get some share butter, because what you see happening once in a while people Get share butter mixes a couple of things without having done the research and put it just in a jar and try and sell it and things that are not that I'm rambling a little bit well they're, not in terms of developing a proper brand. That will stand up to an international brand. You have to really put in the work, especially at the research and development stage. Sometimes people start products because they've identified there's something missing, for example where in Nigeria everybody complains about the humidity and the complains about shrinkage. For example, there I haven't really seen a product that combat you know Frankie, really where you can get a great twister and it's going to last all day in this humidity. So if somebody had realized that that was an issue and did all the research worked thought with the, for example, what ingredients would block out humidity what ingredients would be able to provide the best hold and was able to devise that product and develop it that that They'D had identified that gap and now wanted to devise a product that that what's got that combats that issue. Sorry so that that is something that a way that they'd be able to differentiate themselves and in doing that, they would have to really research the market to see, if I mean I know just from getting questions from our customers, I know that that that is something. That'S a gap, but whether that, for example, is your is the problem that you that you've identified you research the market and ensure that there are enough people who we would want to who have that problem. Who would buy that that product if that product? If that miracle product came on the market, you need to understand the basic components of there's the ingredients that went into that product. So you know, for example, humidities the issue with shrinkage, so you would look for ingredients that were not connected, so ingredients that don't draw in the moisture to your hair so because you're trying to battle that humidity, you would look at, for example, if you're making conditioner You would you need to understand the basic components of that conditioner have to be water because it's moisture so the Galant, but I've seen products marketers marketers condition is that it just oil or shea butter. I know that if you're using that product, for example with the steamer that's going to work, but if you're just using it as a conditioner on its own, it's not going to be successful. And that way it's not. It'S not really going to work. And if a product doesn't work, it's not going to be that successful in terms of repeat sales, and so these are things that you just have to look in to understand. Your ingredients understand what you want them to do. Understand, hair so look into you the releaser to understand how hair works, what hair needs the different hair types - and I don't mean just like 4a 4b 4c, but understand for example, that some hair is more porous. Some hair is less porous if you want, if you're, making a product based on yourself is they're only going to work on your hair type is they're gon na work on a variety of hair types. Have you tested it out on a variety of people? So it's um the research and development stages. It'S really extensive and it does take a long time, but it's it they're, no shortcuts to it. If you were making the product already at home and it's something that you do as a hobby, you've really cut out that stage a little bit, because you know you already have that product and it's just a way of developing it and getting out to market. So you're a bit of an advantage, so that answer your question. I went on for a little bit there. Well it was very good, but maybe how can people learn like this information right? Because I think say I wanted to try something. My hair does shrink up kind of you know when it's humid outside, but how would I even know what types of products could come back that issue? How do I do the research? Are there any places that you recommend that people can go to learn more or what does it good kind of research and development process? Look like okay? Well, it sort of depends because, if we're talking about, for example, if we're talking about having a mass scale product, that is very different from if we're talking about somebody who doesn't have that much money but has a wants to start a small business. So it sort of depends if you're talking, if you've got lots of money to spend and we're talking about developing mass scale pod mass scale product. I would actually recommend talking to a chemist, so you can get this information. You know from the chemist, if we're just talking about somebody who has maybe a little bit of money to spend and wants to start a natural hair brand, which is basically what I think is what most people would be interested in in finding out. You just need to do that research online, their courses that you can do and, firstly, I think that it's an important thing to find able to identify why you want to bring this product to market. So is it that you think that natural hair products bring in a lot of money, so you want to get a chunk of that business, or is it that you already enjoy making products if you already enjoy making products to make products for yourself? Maybe you can't find anything on the market that you like that much maybe found things that you like, we think they're too expensive, and you think that you can keep them cheaper. Or maybe you think that there's something that hasn't been done and that you can bring this to the market and then you've been working on this yourself. This is this comes from a passion and in that the cause of that passion. You probably already have found out discovered, made things for yourself and discovered what works and what doesn't. But then there several books that teach you about properties of products several, even on our blog as well. We'Ve got some information on the properties of the different products and I explain why I use certain products with certain ingredients at you know when I'm in Nigeria, which are different to what I'd use when I'm in England, because when I'm here, products that draw think products Like glycerin, for example, aloe vera draw humidity from from the air and when you're doing that it causes frizz. So I know that if I want to have a twist out of a braid out, I'm not gon na use a product that contains his ingredients so um. So these are things that you learn just by doing the research there's so many just quick, Google searches, there's so many places where you can start off and get get. You know the basic information, but then, if you're at the stage, where you're having to start this process right from right from the beginning, you don't know anything about products, you don't know anything alone. I try it. You just want to get into it because you think it's a lucrative game. It might not be as successful unless you become passionate about it along the way. It might not be as successful if it's something that you're just doing just because you think it's something. There'S gon na be lucrative rather than because you have a passion for it and you want to develop it. Does that make sense, it does make sense. It does make sense so really quick. One, though, are you mentioned that there are some online resources, and you mentioned your website - has information about different places, do research about different products and how they interact with their hair? Are there any other resources that you can share other websites that you've used along your journey to learn more? Yes, there are um, for example, there's a book called the science of back hair that has a lot of information on just a lot of scientific information as well, I'm just looking after natural hair, the kind of products and ingredients to use how to treat and handle Your hair - and I know a couple of people in my chair - sell it and we had a couple of cookies when we don't anymore. I know that you can do it's called under science back hair and there's a blog called the natural Haven. She doesn't post. So much anymore, but she was a scientist and she gave she gave a lot of information on hair and product and backed by science. So, and these are things, are there, several forums online is royal about people who make their own products and mix their own products. I can't nothing spring into mind at the moment, but something that I could always send through a later date, but they're people who discuss there's several with mixologists. She discussed how they make their own products. You know what ingredients they use where to get things from, because there, even with example, we have a lot of good ingredients in Nigeria. We'Ve got, you know, share butters of coconut oil. I think that, but there's certain things that are required in products and you can't really get in Nigeria so, for example, your preservatives which every product should have, and you have something and not that toxic. You can use, for example, up to fen. But you can't get that here. As far as I know, things that you need to emulsify the different ingredients. So, if that you have an oil-based ingredient - and you have a water-based ingredient - they're not going to mix in a product, you need something to emulsify them and they're very few that you can get here in Nigeria. So um you just need to do. Go online. Do a search you know what you're looking for and you're able to find the resources that way. Well, you can, if you want to, if you want me to put together directory something that something I can do for you later. Yeah that'll be great, and I think that that brings us along to our next question. Stephanie asks specifically about when you create products, you know how do you preserve them and limp in their lifespan without using harsh chemicals or if you still want to keep them as natural or organic as possible, so you mentioned some options, but what advice would you give To individuals who are trying to test out, you know what the shelf life of their part of us will be and how to make products last longer, if you're not working with a chemist. The only way you can anything you can do to test that out is just time, so you can make a certain number of control products and keep them. You know keep one just out in a cool down cool dry place. You can keep one in a fridge. You can keep one in a steamy bathroom and you have them. Therefore, you have to keep them and see how long they last is six months a year two years and the only way that that's the way. If you're doing this at home, I mean and you're not doing this, I'm along with the help of a chemist. That'S really the only way that you can see and you have to observe and see how long it's going to take in terms of preservatives. People use things like citric acid. These things like opto, fen and again you just have to in terms of where you can get them, I not sure, of any sources in Nigeria surveys. Google search will confirm that and that's something that you have to order, but you do need to preserve your product. You can't have mold growing your product that you can't sell something somebody and then they use it once. Will they open it once and the next time they look at it. It'S covered in mold, it's just on hygienic, it's not pleasant, and that that will you know, prevent a lot of your future sales. So that's something that you have to. You really have to look into okay. So the next area that we wanted to talk more about was around like sourcing for your ingredients in the packaging and and as you mentioned, some of the products are not available in different African markets, so you have to find it abroad. So what advice would you give maybe around sourcing for ingredients and especially when you're starting out it can be hard because you can't afford large quantities of these items? So do you have any advice on how to find ingredients and then also define quality packaging for your products as well? Well, in terms of ingredients say, for example, if you make simpler products with less ingredients, you can find mediums. If you look at, for example, a company like lots of 10 based well, it's French, but based in the UK, they sell like tiny jars of just shea butter for a ridiculous amount of prices, ridiculous amounts of money and they because they're positioning themselves as a luxury Brand able to do that, but these are all ingredients that you can easily get in my chair. The only thing I'd say is that, if you're working with ingredient, you have to be very, you have to just be very careful of the source example. If you're getting cher butter, don't just go and get it in a local market because you don't know if it's how clean it's going to be. I know people found all sorts of things in market. If you look up the global share Alliance, there's several people. It'S may be made up of African based companies. You can find a lot of people who that way who supply with good quality hygienic shea butter a lot of things in terms of getting sources for a lot of your oils and everything it comes most of time. Just from word of mouth you're, not gon na find that that information from googling you just need to get in there get on the streets, get in the markets, talk to people and make contacts that way for things like packaging. I know that a lot of a number of plastics factories in Nigeria, but they tend to want you to get things in the thousands. But then there are certain areas in certain markets, for example a swanee market or in a yacht, oh good, you you can get. There are several companies that sell plastics in large quantities. I mean you can get jars for as low as twenty narrow for a jar or a bag of maybe a thousand jars for about one one, five or something so you can where you just need to do it's a lot of footwork a lot of walking around A lot of asking people a lot of networking so going to events meeting with people who might make products who might not be that willing to give you the information, admittedly but um. It just takes a lot of it's a lot of footwork, but it is possible to get a lot of vegans it is. I don't think it is possible to get a hundred percent of the ingredients in Nigeria at the moment or originating from my jail or from most African countries. But then you can problem to about ninety five, the ingredients and then, if you're starting out and you keep your product is quite simple, so you keep it with fewer ingredients. Then you do. I mean that just makes it easier to to source your products from here. Rather than trying to make something really complicated with um a lot of ingredient names, you don't recognize and you have to get them somewhere else. So you know, I know what another issue is say. You found your product. You'Ve done your testing, then. The next question is regulation and I think regulation is a big issue for startups and entrepreneurs, but especially when it comes to health and beauty. That'S particularly sensitive because it's going on chemicals, skin, it's going on peoples, hair and you don't want a situation that could be. Potentially you know dangerous are harmful. So what experience have you had or what recommendations would you give it to entrepreneurs to? Are China getting approval from their government body so when I talk but in countries across Africa and aspera there's some kind of regulatory body that manages you know here in beauty products? Well in my juror, especially it's notoriously tough. I mean it's three naff DAC and it's just it's notoriously tough and that's something that you have to. I mean a lot of the regular restrictions actually will put off small batch manufacturers because you have to have factories of a certain size fact. She'S has to be in two different rooms. I think that so that's something that you have to consider and I think you have to look into it straightaway, but I think that while you're doing that, you can get you can get NAFTA regulation from the NAFTA NAFTA website. But you have to just ensure that what you're doing is in line with what what you're going to be required what's going to be required from them? The process takes a long long time takes years, and most people who are working in am doing small batch productions. Won'T even have the scale, that's that will enable them to get map tech registration at this stage. But then I think that, in terms of aligning yourself from the beginning, it's something to come to have it up so you're labeling. It should be follow those regulations and food, all these readings, etc, and then in terms of what you can do just being at home. Somebody'S making products exam put a lot of really great products started in somebody's kitchen and for somebody who wants to do that it doesn't you still need to take steps to ensure that the product you're creating and the product you're going to be putting out is hygienic? So meet or, for example, if you're working in your kitchen, your surfaces, are, you know your surfaces are completely clean. You rub down. We rub down our services and alcohol. Your hands are clean. Your hairs tied back, don't mix equipment that you, you think to make products with equipment that you use for food. Don'T you avoid the use of, for example, ensure your jars are disinfected, so if you're using glass, you can boil them. If you're using plastic, you can use certain sterilizing fluids like Milton, and so you just ensure that right from the beginning, you're already in the habit of aligning yourself with whatever with you know, when you, when you get to the stage where you're going to be inspected And everything you're already in that habit of aligning yourself with that, and also even just for your own personal, your own reputation, if you make products and customers are finding all sorts of things in it, they're not going to buy from you again. So it is really important that you have those standards in-house, even without any kind of regulatory body, if you're planning to eventually take your your product, global you're, going to also have to follow the rules of whatever country you are you're planning on selling in, for example, In the UK and the e they've got these EU labeling rules, which are also very, very strict. It'S quite even a lot of American companies are finding it hard to break into that and then in the States they've got the FDA regulations as well, so whatever market you're looking to break into you need to do research for that that market. But this will take an entire webinar together. Just being aware that you align yourself right from the beginning in terms of your hygiene standards, hey, I hope you guys prepare wash your hands before. Please, okay, maybe you you know, you tested your products, your you! Have your packaging set and you're ready to start introducing it to the market figure out? The best price can be very challenging for our new entrepreneurs, but guard of the industry that you're in and in a competitive market with hair and beauty figuring out, the appropriate price can be quite challenging. Maybe what kind of been price to give for new entrepreneurs who are trying to figure out how to position their products in the market and what price points to look at yeah? Okay? Well, first of all, you can use other products that are already on the market. As a guide, first, you have to decide what kind of product you're gon na. Are you trying to go for a mass-market product rying to go for niche product? When I say niche product I mean somebody who said I'm creating specifically a natural hair product. If you do that, you know that a lot of your customers are going to be quite discerning, quite educated in terms of ingredients. They'Re not gon na want fillers like mineral oil silicones in their product, which also makes your costs a bit more expensive. But at the same time, if you're doing that, you can position it, that's a bit more, not luxury. I think that what the important thing, especially if you're starting off from the small batch. So if, for example, you only have enough money to start off making 24 of one product at a time, you're trying to sell that to reinvest that money. Because you know you don't have any additional investments, a great company and you need to make that money. That means that the products you sell are going to have to make a profit. So it means that when you look at your pricing, you have to look at what is available in the market. You can't price yourself out. You can't charge such a load, but if you see someone who produced his he's been in business for a long time selling their products at, for example, one 1,500 for a jar of something and it you feel it similar to yours. You can't really charge much less than that. If it's not, if your costs are also 1500 Nayarit, you can't charge it. Cuz you're, not gon na make any profit and you're not gon na, be able to reinvest that into where that into your business. Unless you have, you know the funding coming in from somewhere else, so I think it's important to look at growth. How are you covering your costs, making sure that you are covering your course and then at the same time, when you're charging a price when you're setting the price so just make sure that it's commensurate with what people are selling save everybody selling up 1/5 and your Costs are quite high. You might be able to sell at a little bit, maybe a couple of hundred - and I are above that and if you're pushing your product as a niche product, but you probably wouldn't be able to sell for double that price people wouldn't buy. So it's it's just a fine balance of figuring out make it Rea cover your costs, make sure you make that little extra bit, so you can reinvest and still make more product and then I'm not charging too high, not pricing yourself out of the market. Now maybe I know the kinky apothecary carries a wide range of products, some are mass-market, some are camel, and basics are fundamentals, so they're almost like commodities of sorts and then some are more luxury products. So say I wanted to start a company, and I said you know what this is: gon na be a luxury product, I'm using the best of the best ingredients. The packaging looks correct everything. How would you go about positioning that to consumers right? How do you make sure the consumers also view it as a luxury product? So if you are charging more than what other competitors are charging, your customers are seeing that and retailers feel comfortable, stocking it and selling it at that higher price point. Well, if you're gon na do that, first of all, you product better work, so you better have a good product that that you know people once they try. It will buy it. You need to if you're gon, na position yourself as a luxury product you're gon na, have to align yourself with retailers who have that same vision. So you have to go with retailers who also sell other luxury brands or, and such retailer is not yeah. You also have to be selective about who, who stocks it. So, if you're positioning yourself as a retail as a luxury brand, it can't be available everywhere, because somebody - let's pick, for example, olara. I don't think there's all beauty products here, but if they were we're going to see and I'd imagine they'd be quite high quality. They wouldn't stock, something that you could just go down to a local market and get the same thing at so it has to you. Have to be selective about who you line with who sells if you line with a retailer who's already known for luxury products or known as a luxury brand. That would help if you're doing listen if you're doing something that you want to. You want to be perceived as luxury or exclusive. You could also align yourself with um, maybe find a blogger who's, a beauty, blogger or natural hair. Blogger, who also is you know, has Prada good following, but is also seen as somebody who aligns themselves with exclusive luxury brands and then maybe send them a product workout. Something like I deal with them, get them to publicize your product and so from that and but back to what I said I had the product has to work. So they have to be able to convince people that it does work because it does. So if you have, you know the best packaging and you know you align yourself with the best people and then somebody tries to put it and everyone tries it and we don't think it's good you're not going to it's. Not it's not going to be convincing so that that is the most important thing. Okay, that is true. Maybe so what happens after you? And I guess after you develop your costing your pricing, it's really about the branding and the differentiation and sorts, and I feel like a lot of companies, are going for the. As you said, the natural product they're going for the african-themed. The african-themed content and everything like that, but what advice would you give around? How do you make sure your products stand out if you want to have a shea butter god, I do really love state butter. That'S where you're going for? How can your shea butter look different or be different than all the other people doing state by their, and how do you make sure that, and this actually a question that we got from Cydia as well? She said well, everyone's learning, how to make their own products everyone's going to go, buy things. So what you know? What do you do? That'S different when someone can just make something in their house and can whip it up and share it on YouTube. Just the same as you can, maybe you have to help us because you don't want to just create it. Everyone does that's one thing that I was gon na, say: um everybody's always going for butter and there's so many like this so like, including us for guilty of that as well. But then I would love to see some products that are not share, but at least they don't have there's so many other amazing oils there's be above oil there. You know there's so many things as and people could use could look into what else they can base a product on. That'S one thing. So, if you're, using different products that everyone different ingredients re to what everyone else is using that's already a step in the right direction, even if you are gon na carry on using shea butter, what makes your product different? Does it do something different that all the others do? There are a hundred different butters on the market, but, for example, um I mean not to toot our own horn. That much but, for example, we produce a product called the only one that we make is called the bit better. It'S a sheer butter based product, but everyone who tries it well I'd say about 95 % of the reviews you get are positive and people like it. So we know that it is different to other share butter based product. It'S just it's a bit lighter because of what what else it's combined with and just based on that. I know that. That'S that's the only product, probably that will make going forward that has shea butter, because I just feel that there's so so many it's hard to differentiate yourself. If you're using the same ingredients here, look to look for several different ingredients or whatever you can use that. That'S the first thing. Secondly, if you are gon na carry on with the same ingredients that everybody's doing you've got to differentiate user or just make yourself stand out in other ways, so one thing you can do is to sell, build a story, um and sell. That story, so you have a background so why you have this product or why this product works? Why you know people should should need your product, and if you have, if people have a story that they can identify with and it it might help it would convince them a bit more to look at your product to try it out. It might even convince them that it works, even if it doesn't, if you have a convincing enough story and I've seen that with products time and time again, they're, not particularly great products, but because they have this whole. They have this brand they'd built up around a story about how they started. People are convinced and they've become really successful. As a result, packaging is something that I think is really important if, for example, even for us as a retailer, we've got our in our image and people expect a certain standard from us and the products that we start. So when we have a product, our shelves - and we have like shea moisture and Anita grant if we were to have like just jars with some products spilling over with a with a label that wasn't that, inviting that we wouldn't be able to sell that product. So when you're, looking at your branding, you look at, you will look at your packaging, your packaging, even if it's not expensive. Even if your jars are not expensive, you can get your label to get some be nice. Labels done work with a graphic designer, even if you don't have you know the funds to work with real professional. You can find someone creative, look in your network. You might have a friend who's, a graphic design student. You might even have to learn design yourself to do certain things and develop something or a label, or something that draws people in sell your story through that label as well. What does your product do? That is so amazing that um, you know that MIT. That should make people want to get it. Why would people see your product and see another product and and choose yours, so you just sell that story through your branding through your labeling through your whole ethos. You can do that on a simple website. You don't even have to salt at the website. You can start with a blog there. Certain blogs, for example, WordPress that you can customize, have a nice design on. You can have, even if it's a simple one-page thing and it's selling the story of your brand. It'S making people want to, you know, want to find out more want to test out your thing, your your product, and then, when you have all of this, the most important thing is: you need to get it out to people, so people need to know about it. People need to know it's there, so that's where the marketing comes in, so you have to and there's so many different ways most people if you're starting a product line on a shoestring, you're, not gon na, have a huge marketing budget. So they're just certain things that you can't underestimate one: it's social media, especially Instagram. If you're able to sell your story through an interesting Instagram with good content, you're interacting with other people, that's a way to grow awareness and your product to get it out there to people. You might even have to consider sending out free samples to people with a good enough following you can talk about your product and just create a buzz. Another thing is to not underestimate the power of your own network. So, your friends, your family, somebody you added on Facebook after you met them once or you know some someone you went to school with your grandma, everybody needs to know everybody you know should know about your product and there they're the ones you talk about it to Other people, your personal example, if you had, if you have a newsletter, your newsletter should start off your your newsletter base should be you know your friends, so your email contact list, so even people, you don't think, would be interested in it because they might always know Someone and so getting that getting the name of your I'm getting your product out there getting awareness about your product out there at just ways that people might consider you in relation to all the other hundreds of products that might be out there. So your packaging, your story, the image you're putting out and then just people knowing about you in general, okay. So maybe what? If I have a product on stock on the kinky apothecary right? What is it that you want to see from a brand in order to distribute it, because for some people online will be key and that's their? You have to build it. Your own individual supporter base build up customers and drive traffic towards your website or maybe you'll want to stock on an e-commerce platform. But if you want to be stocked in a store and for retailer kind of what does it take to get your products on the shelves with vanity? Again, it's what I meant. I mean different people have different standards of what they'll stock for a lot of. For me, speaking from my personal experience, it's hard to stop products that don't already have a bit of a buzz around them because people you end up with this huge capital outlay, and then you can't sell the products because all you're doing the work to market the Product for the brand, so you need to have generated some sort of buzz for the product and that will get there that will get them interested in if you're. If a retailer knows that, when they stock your product, they're gon na have people lining up to come and buy them or they're gon na have people already heard about it through your Instagram and they've been waiting for you to launch it and they're gon na come In and buy from them, that's one thing. Secondly, again what I was saying: your products have to look nice and we've. I'Ve made this mistake. In the past, we had a graphic designer that I'd been working with on other marketing things, so our flyers and our banners, and he did them all really well. But when it came to our label, he hadn't had experience in doing product labels before, but because he done such a good job. On the other things, we moved ahead with him to print our product labels and then, when they came out and the oil went on them, they all got restain said they weren't pleasant to look at a product like that on a shelf with something that's been well Developed is not gon na sell, so I'm gon na look. Look good and retailers are not really gon na want to stock that. So you have to make sure again. Your packaging, your branding is it's down is good. I think that and then for um. If you want to stock with a retailer, obviously you're gon na have to have a retail price, so you're gon na have to sorry a wholesale price, so you're gon na have to be able to offer them a lower price so that they can sell and also Make a cut from make a cut from selling your product as well. So if your product is really good also another thing you might be able to align yourself with a region. We don't have them so much here in my juror, but maybe in other African countries. They might or in other countries retail chains we don't really have any. But if you work with, for example, if you had a contact with the shop right, for example - I'm look - I don't know if they're interested in selling natural hair products and you worked out that they were exclusive. You know that they have a good reach and you worked out so that they exclusively stock your product and that you people can't get your product from anywhere else. So you know that they're driving traffic into there that's another thing that might work. So if you, you work with a successful brand who's interested in selling your product on the basis that only they will be able to sell it, that's another way that you could work with to try and get mentor to stop. Now maybe we got a question around kind of marketing and distribution when it comes to exhibitions, and this comes from tonka belly and she said: do you think it's important to attend sayers or exhibitions to sell your products when you're already selling them online or in a Store kind of in pain: are you actually able to generate enough revenue to cover the cost of the stand paid for, and what are some things to think about when you're evaluating either not doing a physical scan would be good for your business? Okay, well, um! In terms of doing these, these tools - because we still I mean - we've - been in business for six years - and we still attend a lot of fairs and things that, but the reason that we do that is, I think there are 22 million people in labors, 22 million People haven't heard about the kinky earth Queen, so even if I have my own customers, I have my website and I sell from wherever I'm selling for there's still people out there who I could reach, who haven't heard about the product, and so when you do these Fairs, it's more of a marketing exercise than the sales exercise now I'd say. Maybe because people have heard about us a bit more, we are the more likely to. We do sell a lot more, but in the beginning we didn't it was more of a marketing exercise. We didn't sell enough to cover the cost of the stand back in the day, but then we were able to get people to know about the product. People could see the product sometimes we'd have samples that people could test them out, and that was just a way of building our customer base. We collect um customer details and our guests work and everything add them to our mailing list, and so that was just a way of building our customer base and so as long as he for these events. As long as we seen them more some marketing thing and don't try and make your money back, I think that they're they're quite useful and in terms of evaluating them, I don't do just any fair. So you have to make sure it's something. That'S well known. You have to make sure that there are people who are going to be coming through the doors and they're people who are going to be interesting new products. So if it, I wouldn't, for example, go to and try and sell at a car showroom event, because I know that the people coming in would not necessarily be interested in Aaron BT. So that's you just have to evaluate how well-known the event is know what what other vendors are selling there. So you know what kind of a crowd is coming in and just if they've done the fair before how many people they had last time, just try and gauge how successful it's gon na be, and obviously the more people who come the more successful it is fee And are there any questions that you'd recommend that people ask to keep that information because sometimes maybe host event hosts, don't have that kind of data? But what are the critical questions that you, as a potential vendor, should ask to make sure it's going to be a good event for your products? You can just ask them if they've done the event before so the last time they did it. How many people did can they estimate how many people came? You can find out who the vendors were at the last event, you can talk to those vendors and to see how it went to them. Oh did. Did you get many people at your stand? Many people buy things you can ask if they had any pictures in the social media. People would have put pictures on Instagram. You can gauge from Instagram pictures if an event was quite success. I know that people can crop and do clear, small corners and things that kind of gauge how you know if there was a bit of traffic. People might not have spent that much on the day. But we've had several events where people have come and just taken a flyer and just um and signed up for our guest book and there excited they've placed an order so um I don't know, people might not have the money at the time. But just as long as it's somewhere, where there's foot traffic and if there's a lot of traffic, a fraction of that will end up being your customers at some point. As long as you're able to reach them and have something that you know that they would like. So I think the last point kind of the last major point is you know, operations and logistics? You know you want to make sure that you're creating an efficient process so that it's not just you do it once and then it's over or you're, not learning and improving. So what tips can you share about the operations and how to develop a process that allows the business to be sustainable? You know grow, hopefully quite large and take over the world. Oh yeah, I'm so trying for that two thing, but I mean well, as I said at the beginning, when it was just me now, I actually have a team, but right at the beginning it was just I wasn't that organized and it was so. My logistics were shoddy. Like there's no question about it, I missed a lot of orders from email orders. I missed a lot of phone calls, so it's just about being organized and just knowing that you're focusing on it at a certain time. So, for example, if you have a full-time job and you have - and you know that you have this on the side again, as I was saying you just deal with it - deal through emails, so you know that a certain time of the day you're going to check Your emails you're going to check for the orders and you're going to process them. You know in the evenings, but then your customers need to be aware that then you're not going to be there full-time to answer. You know answer calls answer question, but that you will eventually get back to them in the emails and when you're still starting off small as well. You probably don't. Have you can't just ship if you're getting an order? Maybe you probably not even getting orders every day.